Now where do we go?

Moderators: jhartley, MSR734, nola

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:48 pm

Thank you Graham for a concise summary of the progress of MacZFS, especially given how spread out the relevant information seems to be. It appears tho' too soon to tell whether new MacZFS' progress will lead to something I can replace ZEVO with to meet my needs. So I'm back to waiting and will check in again in a month or so.
I-ku-u Offline


 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by ilovezfs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:58 pm

I-ku-u wrote:Thank you Graham for a concise summary of the progress of MacZFS, especially given how spread out the relevant information seems to be. It appears tho' too soon to tell whether new MacZFS' progress will lead to something I can replace ZEVO with to meet my needs. So I'm back to waiting and will check in again in a month or so.

Given that Graham has abandoned working with MacZFS, or so he says in a separate thread, and to my knowledge hasn't "tested" it for weeks, or at least has no reason to based on his remarks in that thread, he's a particularly poor source of information. If you want authoritative information, make inquiries here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/maczfs-devel and lundman, the lead developer of the Open-ZFS based version of MacZFS, can answer them.
Last edited by ilovezfs on Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ilovezfs Online


 
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:02 am

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by ilovezfs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:02 pm

I-ku-u wrote:given how spread out the relevant information seems to be.

This is false. The relevant information is at the GitHub repository https://github.com/zfs-osx/zfs, and the mailing list https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/maczfs-devel, as it has always been.
ilovezfs Online


 
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:02 am

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:29 pm

ilovezfs wrote:
I-ku-u wrote:given how spread out the relevant information seems to be.

This is false. The relevant information is at the GitHub repository https://github.com/zfs-osx/zfs, and the mailing list https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/maczfs-devel, as it has always been.

Information residing within a large github repository is practically by def'n "spread out". So you contradict yourself - unless you can point me to documentation within that repository as I had initially requested?

Assuming there is no such documentation in that repository, while I have the skillset needed to extract the info from there, I do not have the time. Thus my simple questions regarding an upgrade path from ZEVO on Mtn Lion to a similar or improved ZFS (new MacZFS or ZEVO, doesn't matter) on Mavericks. And don't waste my time by telling me "ask so-n-so here" - either the documentation exists already, or it doesn't. From the responses I've seen so far, it doesn't - but I'm not the expert here on what documentation might exist, and I'd love to be wrong.

Graham provided helpful info, so I thanked him. I would thank you for including your second link quoted above, but Graham beat you to the punch by several hours, and yet you dispute his knowledge in this area. You clearly have some axe to grind with Graham, and I don't care what it is - Graham has been helpful while you haven't. That is not a complaint, it is a statement of fact. My best guess is that you could be more helpful by paying closer attention to what is being asked before you provide an answer, but that's just a guess.

Whatever the reason, whenever someone responds without actually answering the intended question (whether the question or answer is "at fault"), both parties get frustrated. And when frustration arises from communication failures, most everyone naturally thinks the other is an a$$, further degrading communication. Chill out, listen and make peace - or go play in your own sandbox where you can't hurt anyone - I don't care which as long as these discussions stay civil.
I-ku-u Offline


 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by zigmoo » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:04 pm

I-ku-u wrote:@ilovezfs
I can appreciate that you feel Mac-ZFS is currently stable enough to be useful, but every time someone here asks how to migrate to Mac-ZFS from ZEVO, you tell them, essentially, "come chat with me in IRC and I'll tell you what you need to know". As someone with years of experience as a sys-admin and support person (both), that indicates that Mac-ZFS can't possibly be close to stable or ready for more general usage.

So if you want to convince people with publicly available, reasoned words that Mac-ZFS is *currently* worth using, please point us to accurate documentation so we can evaluate the state of Mac-ZFS for ourselves. Otherwise, you are quite literally wasting our time.

FTR, yes, I am troubled that ZEVO hasn't had an update in a long while, and concerned about the safety of my ZFS data with respect to migrating to Mavericks, but I have seen zero public information that tells me there is any stable alternative right now to "keep using ZEVO on Mtn Lion and wait". Does such information exist?


Hello All,

I am chiming in to say you should all take @ilovezfs at his word.

I was a very happy Zevo Silver customer, and I'm grateful for what those guys accomplished for all of us in the Mac world. So when business prevented the Zevo guys from persisting in their efforts, I found my way to #mac-zfs on irc, and I'm SO glad I did.

The help I've received from @ilovezfs directly at IRC over the past month has been truly amazing. I've written production code in c, java, c#, perl, php and 4GLs on PCs, Macs, big-iron servers, embedded devices and a lot else since 1998, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that the support I've received from @ilovezfs (and @lundman) at irc://chat.freenode.net/#mac-zfs is FAR, FAR BETTER than most of what passes for "Enterprise" support in the Fortune-100 world. These guys are professionals of a very high grade who are generously giving their time and wisdom to help the bleating sheep like me who show up in humble search of knowledge about ZFS in #mac-zfs.

My hat's off to @ilovezfs and @lundman and their associates who conceived of the effort to port zfsonlinux to the Mac. osx.zfs is a reality, because they' started it and are making it happen. Right now. It's been working great for me, btw.

May your pools always be well-scrubbed!

moo
zigmoo Offline


 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:29 am

Test results

Post by grahamperrin » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:38 am

ilovezfs wrote:… Given that Graham … hasn't "tested" it for weeks …


My test results, for various software titles (not ZFS-OSX in particular), are more often given to Apple.

ZFS aside for a moment, focusing on OS X, there are three well-known options:

  1. Apple - Mac OS X - Feedback – one way; all feedback is read carefully, but writers should not expect a response from Apple
  2. Bug Reporting - Apple Developer – noticeably improved in recent months, but I guess that within the environment for developers there'll always be something fundamental to cause a heated debate
  3. AppleSeedSoftware Customer Seeding but it's not only for customers; it's also for Genius Bar and on-floor Apple Retail employees …

In my experience: Apple is encouraging, patient, and faultlessly polite towards its customers.

Similarly, when I beta tested for Ten's Complement: Don Brady was encouraging, patient, and faultlessly polite. Results of tests were treated as test results; not as opportunities to mock the end user.
grahamperrin Offline

User avatar
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:21 pm
Location: Brighton and Hove, United Kingdom

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by ilovezfs » Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:59 am

Thank you for the incredibly helpful education. I will be sure to apply my new enlightenment to my dealings with our actual users.
ilovezfs Online


 
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:02 am

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:39 am

zigmoo wrote:Hello All,

I am chiming in to say you should all take @ilovezfs at his word.

I have been, but I'm sure you can understand my frustration with him when I ask a question analogous to "Where is the NYC Public Library?" and most of the answers he's given are analogous to "in NYC" or "go to NYC and ask someone there". They are correct answers, but quite useless.
I-ku-u Offline


 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by brendon.humphrey » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:34 pm

@I-ku-u

I understand the sentiment of what you are trying to say. In terms of osx-zfs, it is under heavy development. It is being created by some very skilled volunteers. You will not find a volume of documentation, or any other artifacts that you may be expecting from a commercial product at this time. These things will come as the project gains contributors.

You need to know that aside from the installation experience, osx-zfs provides essentially the same user experience as ZEVO CE. There are of course features under development which you may want (such as automount) and these will come.

Osx-zfs offers some advantages over the ZEVO implementation already - lz4 compression, unlimited storage, zpool 5000, soon to be encryption and probably other features that I am unaware of.

As Lundman has pointed out in other posts, there are a few of us using osx-zfs for storing real data now. That includes me. Osx-zfs is improving at a rapid rate, and I for one am happy enough with its behavior. The usual caveats apply - keep backups in case something does go wrong. The guys are certainly welcoming to early adopters, and are very responsive to addressing any defects identified.

In the posts above, you have been provided with the means to contact the volunteers around the project. It is entirely up to you as to how you use that information.

Regardless of which path you take, I wish you all the best in your zfs endeavours.

- Brendon
brendon.humphrey Offline


 
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:53 pm

Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:05 am

brendon.humphrey wrote:@I-ku-u

I understand the sentiment of what you are trying to say. In terms of osx-zfs, it is under heavy development. It is being created by some very skilled volunteers. You will not find a volume of documentation, or any other artifacts that you may be expecting from a commercial product at this time. These things will come as the project gains contributors.

You need to know that aside from the installation experience, osx-zfs provides essentially the same user experience as ZEVO CE. There are of course features under development which you may want (such as automount) and these will come.

Osx-zfs offers some advantages over the ZEVO implementation already - lz4 compression, unlimited storage, zpool 5000, soon to be encryption and probably other features that I am unaware of.

As Lundman has pointed out in other posts, there are a few of us using osx-zfs for storing real data now. That includes me. Osx-zfs is improving at a rapid rate, and I for one am happy enough with its behavior. The usual caveats apply - keep backups in case something does go wrong. The guys are certainly welcoming to early adopters, and are very responsive to addressing any defects identified.

In the posts above, you have been provided with the means to contact the volunteers around the project. It is entirely up to you as to how you use that information.

Regardless of which path you take, I wish you all the best in your zfs endeavours.

- Brendon

Thank you Brendon, for the good summary. I wish I could be an early adopter, or even a tester, of OSX-ZFS. But lz4 compression, for example, does effectively nothing for me due to most of my data already being compressed. Yet the troubles reported in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maczfs-devel/NckH67UWgn8 are show-stoppers for me.

I guess another way of stating my frustration is that ilovezfs seemed to not understand that such needs might exist, that there are people for which the correct answer, with the current state of affairs, is "well, we don't have what you need yet, but we're working on it". I sort of got that impression from Graham's answer, but ilovezfs' dispute with him clouded my perception - so thank you also for your clarification.
I-ku-u Offline


 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:29 am

Previous

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ilovezfs and 0 guests

cron