Now where do we go?

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Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:31 am

@ilovezfs
I can appreciate that you feel Mac-ZFS is currently stable enough to be useful, but every time someone here asks how to migrate to Mac-ZFS from ZEVO, you tell them, essentially, "come chat with me in IRC and I'll tell you what you need to know". As someone with years of experience as a sys-admin and support person (both), that indicates that Mac-ZFS can't possibly be close to stable or ready for more general usage.

So if you want to convince people with publicly available, reasoned words that Mac-ZFS is *currently* worth using, please point us to accurate documentation so we can evaluate the state of Mac-ZFS for ourselves. Otherwise, you are quite literally wasting our time.

FTR, yes, I am troubled that ZEVO hasn't had an update in a long while, and concerned about the safety of my ZFS data with respect to migrating to Mavericks, but I have seen zero public information that tells me there is any stable alternative right now to "keep using ZEVO on Mtn Lion and wait". Does such information exist?
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Re: Now where do we go?

Post by ilovezfs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:20 am

The official documentation for MacZFS has always been in the canonical location: http://maczfs.org

Also, heads up there is now a Mavericks installer for the old MacZFS. http://code.google.com/p/maczfs/downloads/list

If you wish to look a gift horse in the mouth with respect to my offer discuss these things further in #mac-zfs that is up to you.
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Features, compatibility, not rushing

Post by grahamperrin » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:39 am

The April 2013 release of MacZFS, not particularly old, stable, lacks the feature set that's associated with OpenZFS. The same is true of ZEVO Community Edition 1.1.1; it lacks those features. Both were removed from the list of OpenZFS distributions before the site was launched.

The stable version of MacZFS (pool version 8, filesystem version 2) is not a place to go with pools that use version 28.

Amongst the frequently asked questions about OpenZFS: compatibility.

Discussion of development of MacZFS: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/maczfs-devel – there are encouraging posts.

Postscripts

Away from the MacZFS-devel group, there's additional discussion of ZFS-OSX test results in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/zfs-macos including:


My plea for people to not rush is not specific to Mavericks, and it's not only the bug affecting Time Machine that informs the plea.

Hard Drives: ZFS (MacInTouch Reader Reports, 2012-06-19) and numerous other items, most of which are private, remind me that the phases of beta testing of ZEVO were detailed, complex and time-consuming.

Testing of ZFS-OSX should be no less complex. Not everything can be automated, and not all bugs will have symptoms that are immediately apparent. For what it's worth:

  • I'd like to see beta testing of ZFS-OSX for at least a few weeks, maybe a few months, before a pronouncement of stability.

Last but not least, my very first edit to the OpenZFS wiki: http://open-zfs.org/w/index.php?title=D ... &oldid=308 – aiming to satisfy the naturally varied viewpoints within the MacZFS community.
Last edited by grahamperrin on Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:31 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:45 am

ilovezfs wrote:The official documentation for MacZFS has always been in the canonical location: http://maczfs.org

Also, heads up there is now a Mavericks installer for the old MacZFS. http://code.google.com/p/maczfs/downloads/list

If you wish to look a gift horse in the mouth with respect to my offer discuss these things further in #mac-zfs that is up to you.

I'm well aware of the canonical location of the documentation. Unless I am grossly misunderstanding what I have read there, it says nothing to refute my earlier statements, which can be summarized as, "there does not currently exist a stable, documented ZFS to use on Mavericks that can upgrade from ZEVO's version on Mtn Lion". Is this correct?

Reverting to the old MacZFS for use in Mavericks is not a viable option. I doubt it's less bug free than it was under Mtn Lion and even if I'm wrong I do not have the disk space or time to construct new pools using the old MacZFS version to migrate my data that way.
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Re: Now where do we go?

Post by ilovezfs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:04 am

I-ku-u wrote:Reverting to the old MacZFS for use in Mavericks is not a viable option


Speak for yourself. For many that is perfectly viable, and the most responsible course of action.

You are absolutely correct, as reflected in the documentation at the canonical location, that the new Open-ZFS based version of MacZFS is not yet the official release version. Nonetheless, some will still want to use it earlier rather than later due to their desire for newer features or desire not to rebuild their pool on the older version. If that is not you, so be it.
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Re: Features and compatibility

Post by ilovezfs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:10 am

grahamperrin wrote:The April 2013 release of MacZFS


Latest release is October 28, 2013.



It is a place to go if you are willing to rebuild your pool.
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Re: Now where do we go?

Post by I-ku-u » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:36 am

ilovezfs wrote:
I-ku-u wrote:Reverting to the old MacZFS for use in Mavericks is not a viable option


Speak for yourself. For many that is perfectly viable, and the most responsible course of action.

You are absolutely correct, as reflected in the documentation at the canonical location, that the new Open-ZFS based version of MacZFS is not yet the official release version. Nonetheless, some will still want to use it earlier rather than later due to their desire for newer features or desire not to rebuild their pool on the older version. If that is not you, so be it.

I was speaking for myself, which you edited out. Please do not troll me by deliberately misreading my statements, nor by asserting an option I explicitly ruled out for myself is available to me anyway.

That aside... I am willing to rebuild my pool, if the improvement is worth the cost in time. I did so when I upgraded to ZEVO. I agree that whether the old MacZFS on Mavericks is an improvement to ZEVO on Mtn Lion is an individual choice, but by no means can reverting to an earlier ZFS version with known issues be considered an upgrade of ZFS. I don't care whether I upgrade my ZFS installation to a new version of ZEVO, or MacZFS, but I'm not going to go through the overhead of a pool rebuild unless it is a clear improvement before I start. I am not in a rush to upgrade to Mavericks, but I know I need a plan to get there somehow, eventually.

So, all that aside, since there isn't an option now... What information exists, if any, about how soon ZEVO or the new MacZFS might be available for use on Mavericks?
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Suitability of the stable version of MacZFS

Post by grahamperrin » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:46 am

ilovezfs wrote:Latest release is October 28, 2013.


It's the old MacZFS-74.3.0 code, a recent installer that's labelled experimental.

… if you are willing to rebuild your pool.


I'm not willing to lose the feature set that I associate with ZEVO.

Whilst the stable version of MacZFS is described as providing absolutely all functionality, speed, and data integrity guarantee which are needed for personal and small enterprise use, it does not provide the functionality that I require. Each person will have his or her own set of requirements.

I require at least:

  • good compatibility with Spotlight and related technologies.

Amongst the MacZFS issues for Spotlight:


– low priority.

And so on …
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Re: Suitability of the stable version of MacZFS

Post by ilovezfs » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:59 am

grahamperrin wrote:Each person will have his or her own set of requirements.

This.
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Re: Now where do we go?

Post by grahamperrin » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:27 pm

First, this:

… aiming to satisfy the naturally varied viewpoints within the MacZFS community.
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